What many persons do not realize when the espouse redistribution of wealth is that social welfare is a failed economic policy of the FDR, Stalin and Soviet Union Era. It sounds good, but doesn't work. I am going to give one recent example. Recently we had a major run up in gasoline and oil prices. The cost to purchase a gallon of gas more than doubled in one year. When it approached the tipping point well over $4 dollars a gallon of gas. Retail sales froze. No one even came out to spend Peopel totally reevaluated spending money. No one went out to eat. They are still not going out to eat and shop as they once did. When you don't go out to shop or dine... and as a result food sales have fallen off het charts. Restaurants all around Atlanta are closing and have no one inside. Why? Less disposable income is to blame! When a person has less disposable income especially a wage earner they spend less. The economy contracts. There are no tips for waiters or bus boys.
More income in the pocket of an earner spreads the wealth. Private schools, cars, hair cuts, dining, vacations, and choices in life do not appear with out money. You have to understand economics when money also is pulled from the economy. It is a reverse multiplier. It contracts spending.
So lets rethink tax policy! Raise taxes or lower them? Social welfare or free enterprise? It's your choice!
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HA! The wealth is already being redistributed. It's going from the treasury (read taxpayer) to the bonus budgets of Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, et al.
Jim, I have not only been studying this for the last several months, but have arrived at some conclusions based on my reading that I agree with you....sort of.
Part of the problem with the financial crisis we are in currently is due in large part to Reagan supply side economics (good idea in 1982). Not so much because of trickle down policies, which in theory work but because in reality, they do not. Here is why. The real problem and what is usually not taken into account is the impact of human involvement. Economic models do not occur in a vacuum and have to account for human involvement. When there is not regulation or lax regulation and the added complexity of leaving humans to their own devices, it has the potential of going awry. It as been proven time and again. If you give man essentially unlimited access to risk (cheap money) without any consequence (no regulation), the entire system becomes lopsided and out of balance. As much as I do not like government oversight, as a society we created a constitution to make sure that these balances were not abused. And the unfortunate consequence is that now market forces are not going to re-balance our economy without government involvement. The pendulum has swung way to far for way too long.
Bo
Lenn Harley Homefinders.com MD & VA Real Estate Yes, but the new taxes will be more right out of our earnings.
Bo Hussung/ Title services in all 50 states (Cogent Closing Associates) First of all government oversight is an absolute joke and a total disaster. 7 years after September 11, 2001 our borders are still wide open. We are over run by illegal aliens that work as slaves without benefits, in a country they should not be in, taking away jobs from Americans, receiving benefits of legitimate citizens. Our food is not inspected, banks are failing all over the place...and you are afraid of big government? The government is already the larges single employer in the USA! No one gets fired, no one gets laid off, no one is judged on real performance. As far as I am concerned, the pendulum should have swung a lot further!
There are numerous studies that show the economy flourishes as tax rates are lowered. Don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.
Jim, what we really need is a resurrection of Ronald Reagan.
Either that, or make Atlas Shrugged required reading for every citizen of the U.S.
Sharon Simms St Pete Florida CRS CIPS CLHMS (RE/MAX Metro) I agree. People want change, but they must be OK with Democrats... the ones that brought us a lot of this mess.
Brian Block -- Northern Virginia & D.C. Real Estate (RE/MAX Allegiance) I agree, the problem is these persons view "Ronald Reagan" as a villain!
I agree one hindred percent Jim let the free markets work, they always do.
Jim, For starters: Brian Block, I do not think Ronald Reagan was a villian. In fact, I voted for him twice. I think history will look favorably on his presidency. He was exactly what this country needed at the time. A lot of what we are witnessing started in Reagans era, however. The problem is that we have thought for the last 25 years that we can borrow our way out of debt. I am free market economics proponent, but it has to have a system of checks and balances, which have sorely been missing for too long. A little tweaking here and there would have been fine. For instance when Greenspan at his own admission, kept interest rates down in 2002, his actions simply prolonged an already mounting problem and all it did was literally flood the market with even cheaper money. The Great Depression used free markets as a prescription for correcting it ills and in fact, the lack of govenrnment intervention early on (1929-1931) actually exacerbated the problem. Many enonomists, including Milton Friedman, Paul Krugman and even our own Federal reserve chairman, Ben Bernanke, a scholar of the Great Depression agree that without quick government intervention we would be looking at a significantly much worse problem. I agree we have really, really big problems in this country and our own government is a significant part of those problems, but something has to be done and next Tuesday is our mandate to show the elected leaders that we have a voice.
God bless us all!
Bo
John Walters (Specialized Real Estate) It is when Government interferes we have major problems.
Bo Hussung/ Title services in all 50 states (Cogent Closing Associates) Bo, you used the phrase, "borrow your way out of debt" - I agree with your premise on the Government level. Now, on the individual taxpayer level...the person that will lose the most under Obama is the person that paid his/her fair share. They put down 20% on their home, they paid their taxes, they did not buy the new car, they did not take vacation, they did not burden the state and sent their kids to private school though it was a struggle... now a few years before they retire you are going to take away that capital gains exclusion on the home they bought 25 years ago and can still be sold at a profit. You'll take a 140K of the gain and give it to the government that has already proven they cannot handle your money. You will tax their inheritance because they were thrifty and actually saved money. That is regressive. Why not have layoffs in an ineffective government? Why not close government agencies that do nothing first? Why not cut out pork barrel politics that steal from the public now? Why not have accountability in government before we give them one more cent? What is wrong with that? I am sure someone some where is smoking $1000 cuban cigars on a yacht with women and bikinis, and drinking unblended 100 year old scotch malt whiskey on last months bailouts. Tax the citizens of this country for the good of the country as a last resort. Let those that need to wrk their way up get a 2nd or a 3rd job. Let them go to college at night and weekends.
Sorry Bo - that is socialism at its worst!
Jim, I do not disagree with you. According to the tax proposal comparisons, the numbers for this years income (which is all I can really go on right now), I just became about $200 dollars wealthier by Obama standards over McCain and if I go with my income averages of the last 5 years, I come out the same under both plans. So all in all, I am not that worried. Btw, the fat cat on the yacht?...he pays more, but only if he makes more than 2.9 million.....not really worried about that either.
Incidentally, all this talk is important because I think we can have some impact on what we do and do not want to pass, but remember, these are just proposals and in all likelihood, either one is going to be diluted quite a bit to any final versions.
Great discussion Jim!
Bo Hussung/ Title services in all 50 states (Cogent Closing Associates) Witha democratic house, senate, and presidency it will be a rubber stamp to approve money out of your pocket into the government coffers. But you did not answer my proposal - why not trim government first?
GM has layoffs, Linen Things closes its doors, Delta Airlines has lay offs, but the government keeps growing and has a bigger deficit and no lay offs? What gives? No accountability. If the government was open, and transparent that would be different. They are not.
Jim, that was the part I was agreeing with you about. There is entirely too much waste. Case in point, the bailout included 150 billion dollars in additional spending for pet projects and pork. That is ridiculous! Our government is not efficient. I think our Congressmen shouldn't be paid. I think there should be massive layoffs, I think that if people are going to have to cut back to simply make ends meet (i.e., ME), why not the gov't? They should not be immune to all the same trials and tribulations of the people that put them in office. For goodness sake, we are the reason they even have a job. So treat the public like a board of directors of a major corporation. If they don't perform (which they haven't in like... forever), then they either get demotions or a pink slip.
Bo
Bo Hussung/ Title services in all 50 states (Cogent Closing Associates) I can buy into that. We just cannot give our government a blank check to our money. There has to ba accountability. Have a great day!